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daeva_neesanHere's a post connected with my previous one on the same subject :3
Out of curiosity I investigated about the armor and other items featured on this version of the Demon King, and I was delighted to find out about their actual existence.
Let's start with the yoroi and the kabuto, which intrigued me because of its peculiar decoration:
Well, I found out that this exact armoir is the copy of the one kept in the Kenkun temple in Funaoka (Kyoto):
As for the jinbaori:
It's the copy of one kept at the Tokyo National Museum:
On the website of the museum is described as "made with bird's plumage".
When it came to the katana the deal became more difficult, because, contrary to what we think, in Japan the recognizable part of the katana is not its "mounting" but the blade.
So if you search for swords belonging to Nobunaga you find pics of the blades alone, with the recognizable signature of the maker on it, rarely the "whole thing".
Anyway, I remembered about this peculiar design, I found it on a Japanese store as the replica of one of Nobunaga's swords, "Nagatani":
Surely it's a bit vague information, but I have no reasons to assume that the sword is another, considering how precise the other items are.
It may seem not such a great feat, but considering the level of blabbering and fakes concerning Sengoku warriors and their belongings, it's nice to see that a figure was approached with the due historical importance :3
Out of curiosity I investigated about the armor and other items featured on this version of the Demon King, and I was delighted to find out about their actual existence.
Let's start with the yoroi and the kabuto, which intrigued me because of its peculiar decoration:
Well, I found out that this exact armoir is the copy of the one kept in the Kenkun temple in Funaoka (Kyoto):
As for the jinbaori:
It's the copy of one kept at the Tokyo National Museum:
On the website of the museum is described as "made with bird's plumage".
When it came to the katana the deal became more difficult, because, contrary to what we think, in Japan the recognizable part of the katana is not its "mounting" but the blade.
So if you search for swords belonging to Nobunaga you find pics of the blades alone, with the recognizable signature of the maker on it, rarely the "whole thing".
Anyway, I remembered about this peculiar design, I found it on a Japanese store as the replica of one of Nobunaga's swords, "Nagatani":
Surely it's a bit vague information, but I have no reasons to assume that the sword is another, considering how precise the other items are.
It may seem not such a great feat, but considering the level of blabbering and fakes concerning Sengoku warriors and their belongings, it's nice to see that a figure was approached with the due historical importance :3
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Date: 8/3/14 01:19 (UTC)no subject
Date: 18/3/14 07:53 (UTC)I always thought the ageha butterfly crest is fascinating because of the Taira clan relations. I've read some WTF articles saying "Well, no wonder Nobunaga failed. He's a Taira descendant. It's like he's destined to fail. But Ieyasu is a Minamoto descendant, so he ended up becoming shogun like his ancestor". Bullshit, I say.
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Date: 18/3/14 08:18 (UTC)But I was reading on Japonius Tyrannus that the fact about the Taira descendant is probably something that Nobu made up to look cool against Ashikaga... It mentions some documents were Oda traditionally traced their heritage from the Fujiwara family, and even Nobu signed one of his early documents as "Fujiwara no Nobunaga".
I always had the impression that it was easy for Japanese people to claim some cool heritage without any actual proof, since Japanese genealogy tends to be a bit cloudy when it came to these big-shot families... It's as if I'd claim to be the descendant of Eve. It's true in a sense, but there's no proof of it.
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Date: 18/3/14 09:12 (UTC)But yes, Japanese genealogy is very cloudy, what with illegitimate children and incomplete records everywhere. Especially if the person in question isn't really important. The Taira Nobunaga was claiming descent from was supposedly an illegitimate child too. So it's like, "You can't prove that I'm wrong, so I can say whatever I want!"
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Date: 18/3/14 10:47 (UTC)I read Japonius very quickly, but somehow I can't digest the Chronicles as fast... It's just so filled with details, I have to go over and over it, then I start overthinking and I can't move onwards XD
I think that I'm still wondering over the Initial Book XD and whenever I need infos on other details on other subjects I go to check those bits specifically-- I'm mostly using it as some kind of manual/touristic guide, LOL
Exactly :D
It's pretty probable that the Odas don't descend from any of those lines. I mean, it's not as if only emperors and nobles could procreate, so I don't understand this Japanese thing of considering those four noble families as the source of the whole Japanese population!
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Date: 18/3/14 11:27 (UTC)It's not that they think only the four noble families can have children. It's because if you're not important, you don't have the right to rule. You just cannot. If I remember correctly Ieyasu Tokugawa also had to claim descent from the Minamoto to get where he is. The Matsudaira family isn't really anybody otherwise.
So if I come from a noble family, I am more "legitimate". Even though... the people wouldn't give a fuck. It's the imperial court that do care or something like that.
So because Nobunaga aims to bring down the entire country, he needs political leverage, and if he has to do this, then so be it XD I'm sure he probably doesn't believe in that, but situation calls for it. He's the guy who hires people without discriminating backgrounds, after all.
Because emperor = god and stuff. NOBODY dares to dethrone the emperor and you can't name yourself shogun unless the emperor says you're shogun. The current emperor is still the direct descendant of the emperor from Nobu's time. That's kind of crazy.
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Date: 18/3/14 12:03 (UTC)Oh, yes, yes, I know that :3
I was talking about the actual historical resource about Nobu's lineage, not why he claimed that.
It bothers me because I see references to the Taira whenever I check on Nobunaga websites, even comparing the members of the families to look for similarities, and to me that's just-- WRONG XD
Just saying, last time I was talking with a fellow Nobunaga friend, and we happened to talk about one of her Japanese friend, and she told me that she came from the Taira line too, so Nobunaga was her relative-- AND IT MADE NO SENSE AT ALL.
--It would be interesting to get further infos on the actual family of Nobunaga-- I remember it being mentioned in a note of Japanius, but again, it was some speculation based on incomplete documentation...
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Date: 18/3/14 12:32 (UTC)Of course it's wrong! Similarities? In what? Actions? Because there's no way we can tell if their faces look similar or not! That's just silly! XD We have a decent picture of what Nobu looked like thanks to the European artist, but the other people? Well... those Japanese drawings don't exactly tell much...
I think it really is hard to find anything else unless someone invented a time machine or something D: People change around their names a lot and documents get destroyed and people tell lies and stuff.
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Date: 18/3/14 13:07 (UTC)Just think about people like Hideyoshi! He made up a thousand family names and borrowed his mon from Nobunaga-- I don't understand how one can take seriously what these guys say about their origins XD *starts to doubt about Tokugawa too, LOL*
PS: Thank you very much for this discussion T_T;
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Date: 18/3/14 13:30 (UTC)Thank you? Why? O.o *confused*
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Date: 18/3/14 14:03 (UTC)--I guess that the nobility just lived in a "different world" than that of the bushi.
Considering how the Emperor's role is absolute and divine, it makes sense that they should be there to give importance to certain rules, even if they are not considered so much from the actual population... Yet, how carefree of certain samurai XD !
--Because it's a while since I had some proper discussion about Nobu with someone T_T;
It's always refreshing to chat a bit about it with other "fans".
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Date: 18/3/14 14:43 (UTC)I don't even know what "nobility" is anymore in the Sengoku era. Do they still exist at all? O__O;;
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Date: 18/3/14 15:02 (UTC)From this aspect, Japanese hierarchy seemed to be pretty similar to Egyptian, or Indian... We know about samurai and Emperors, but also in Japanese society there were those called "pariah" :3 !
I think that in this sense, the Sengoku era has been one of those "physiological" moments in history where the waters of a stagnant pound had to be moved... And Nobunaga was definitely one of the figures that inspired and promoted this change, it's one of the reasons why I find him so charming, his "thinking outside the box"...
(unfortunately both Hideyoshi and Tokugawa decided that all this freedom didn't fit Japanese people, and somehow they returned to the "old" system-- How pitiful--)
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Date: 18/3/14 15:19 (UTC)This is kind of why I want to punch Hideyoshi and Tokugawa sometimes XD
I know it's not THAT bad. If Japan had been too open, they might end up becoming like China. The European colonizers ruined them.
But they really shouldn't be so uptight about the whole thing. Maybe it would've been a better situation if one of Nobu's sons had managed to take over...
Nobu, you really should've paid more attention to your other sons and trained them better! Then they would behave more properly and not do stupid things when you and Nobutada died! XD
I'm really frustrated about Nobukatsu and Nobutaka, really. Nobutaka actually tried to avenge his father, but instead of going after Akechi himself, he went and killed someone else. WHY??? And I don't even know what Nobukatsu is doing. Some articles said he fought Akechi in Azuchi and caused the castle to burn down, but I don't know if it's true or not.
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Date: 18/3/14 16:08 (UTC)In a sense I do prefer the "old-styled" Japan, the one of geisha and secrets and unvalicable spots-- But I'm also endeared by the Japan of the Meiji era (the happiest period ever, I'd say!), and the 50s/60s, full of kitsch and wtf...
I'm keen to think that progress is brought over only by communication, sharing and curiosity. I think that without the Tokugawa shogunate, the contact with the West wouldn't have been so traumatizing, and now they could enjoy modernity better, be more openminded about what's around them, instead of being so vain and superficial about it.
Also, China was messed up by Communism, not by westerners' influences XD
China and West trace their mutual collaboration and respect since the times of Marco Polo (as far as we know), and I don't think that trading with Europe ever endagered their culture or roots as Communism did.
The deal with Nobunaga's sons really intrigues me, 'cause there is so little info about it D': !!!
I'm going to write about this issue on a post, someday.
To be honest, I liked how Nobutaka tried to deal with the issue of succession.
Killing the son of his uncle sure didn't feel quite right, but in the context it made sense: it was an era of treachery, so he assumed that killing Akechi's kin would have been a good deed (and I don't know the details, but maybe when Nobutaka moved from his post, Hideyoshi took care of Mitsuhide already--)... I also liked his idea of trying to fight for the sake of the Oda clan by trying to inherit his clan back, but Hideyoshi was a damn fox...
Nobukatsu did the best thing, he submitted to Hideyoshi and lived his life in peace and prosperity XD
I don't know what he was doing at the time of Nobunaga's death, but I assumed that as the head of the Kitabatake clan he was dealing with the stuff in his province...Though I remember about some mess happening in Azuchi at the time, but I'm not sure that the castle was under the care of Nobukatsu, back then...
We know little about them, but I must say that I'm charmed by the fiery personalities of Nobunaga's sons XD !
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Date: 18/3/14 18:07 (UTC)I have to admit, all the mystery about Nobu's sons almost make me be more interested in them over Nobu XD Mystery is always attractive.
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Date: 18/3/14 20:27 (UTC)But, in the long run, look at Hong Kong and look at Beijin-- Which one do you think that is having a greater time by now?
Nothing good can happen out of sheer isolation (ironic, thinking that the whole deal behind Communism was creating a "community" out of the whole world, under the inspiration of socialistic ideals)--
I'm also intrigued by Nobuhide! if you look at him, he was as badass and as shrewd as his son!
Sometimes I think about all the cool books, documentaries and dramas about them that are only available in Japanese language and I feel like shedding a painful tear T_T
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Date: 19/3/14 02:18 (UTC)I recently found a novel about Nobukatsu, and even if it's half fiction I still want to read it!
Some stores won't even allow you to buy books if you don't live in Japan and it really makes me angry >◇< There were books on castles that I wanted to buy for drawing reference and I can't!
I don't hear about Nobuhide much, but wasn't he known as Tiger of Owari? He seems like a great guy. I do sometimes wonder what his relatinship with Nobu is like. I always had the impression that Nobu liked his dad, and he was acting strange during the funeral was because he fidn't want his father to die so soon.
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Date: 19/3/14 10:26 (UTC)Did you try places like Amazon? I know it's possible buying from there, the only problem is that the shipping rates are absurd.
Or you could use a proxy service, also if those imply a lot of wasted money on fees and commission fees :/
There's also Kinokuniya: https://www.kinokuniya.com/ --You just need to find a shop close to your location :3 (the one closer to me is the one in Dubai, I think =_=;) --But I never tried this!
--This late autumn I should go to another trip to Japan! If you can provide me a list with pictures of the vcovers, titles and authors I could try to look for them for you :D
I'm going to check some bookshops anyway, so if I can help you just ask ^^
As far as I know, anyone who had a temper back then was nichnamed "Tiger" XDD Even Kenshin was known as "The Tiger of Echigo", before people decided that "Tiger" fit Takeda better and turned him into a "Dragon" XD
Yeah, the relationships between daimyo and their sons is always so mysterious! But maybe there are no infos about it because it was obvious for them-- I guess the father had to be detached and kinda rough to the kids. There's this expression "Nihon Danshi", to describe the typical Japanese man as someone who rarely shows his feelings and appreciation for his wife and kids XD If you think about it, anime are full of this kind of characters.
I have the impression that Nobu loved his dad too T_T; ! In my opinion, he also searched for other "father-like" figures in his life... Dousan, Matsunaga, even Takeda! --But that's just me overfantasizing XD
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Date: 24/3/14 02:18 (UTC)I have to see if I still have the book titles bookmarked O_O When I saw that it doesn't ship outside Japan I deflated and gave up :(
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Date: 24/3/14 09:37 (UTC)I've a lot bottled up XD;
Yes, I do!
Here: http://www.nobunagakou.jp/%E3%83%9B%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0/%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%B3%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC/
Check out that website, it's frequently updated on all Nobunaga's events :3 ! (even if it's mostly conferences and stuff of sort >_>; )
You can find the pamphlet in any of the castles of the tour, so you can find easily ;3 !
It looks like last year they added the Nagoya Castle too, to the line-up!
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Date: 24/3/14 13:21 (UTC)How do you do it?? >.>
The last time I went the only vaguely Nobu-related places I went to was Honnouji and Shinchou Saryou. It was dark at night too, so I couldn't find the Honnouji monument that is in the place of the original Honnouji. Bleh.
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Date: 24/3/14 13:32 (UTC)But it's easier done than read :D (LOL)
As far as I know the stamp rally is connected to some kind of lottery, you had the chance to win some stuff if you complete the track and send it to some place in Japan, but to be honest I couldn't care less, and I kept the pamphlet as a souvenir XD
It's a pity D': !
The Honnouji's landmark is pretty tricky XDD It's actually in an easy spot to find, but when we went there we walked over it at least twice before we recognized it XD --And it was dark, too T_T
We tried to go to Honnouji too, but it was pretty dark already and the underground looked like a mess to deal with o_o; I wasn't expecting something so different from Tokyo and Nagoya, LOL!
Are you planning another visit to Japan soon? I'm making some Google Maps to help me in my next trips (since this time I'll mostly travel alone), if you want I can share ;3
For now I just completed the Kyoto's one XD I put the landmarks for the Old Honnouji and Old Nijo Palace too :D
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Date: 24/3/14 13:42 (UTC)The main reason why I couldn't spend time to hunt for the monument is because I was with my parents and they're tired and want to go back to the hotel already :(
Ooooh, please share! I probably won't be going there soon, but would help for future trips XD
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Date: 24/3/14 15:16 (UTC)Here's Kyoto: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=z_Q4mKwlI8ZA.kfEBYws5Vcoc
--The other about Nagoya is still under construction x'D
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Date: 24/3/14 22:28 (UTC)Going around would be hard, heheh. I hope next time I can go alone or with a friend who shares the enthusiasm, 'cause I don't think my parents like history that much.
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Date: 26/3/14 13:31 (UTC)Shincho Sanryo has the adress on its website, so I just had to copy/past that on Google Maps to find it-- The temples were easy to find because they are temples LOL (there are various Myokakuji, but Les wrote somewhere that the one where Nobutada lodged was the one close to some cultural place of sort, and that's the one on the map)-- As for the landmark of old Nijo castle, I used my Google skills.
I found here a guy who marked all the relevant bits already, and I just picked the one I cared the most: http://everkyoto.web.fc2.com/report697.html (you can see the map at the bottom of the page)
My suggestion is: leave your parents on their own and you go by yourself XD !